Arguing about the commemoration of the Galician SS being called a “neo-nazi march” by RT

Roman Skaskiw The Galician SS Division formed toward the end of the war with the exclusive purpose of fighting the Bolsheviks, who, in the two decades prior to the war, exterminated up to 25% of all Ukrainians.

They were supposed to form the core of an eventual Ukrainian Army. This followed the model from twenty years earlier, when the “Sich Riflemen” of the defeated Austro-Hungarian Army formed a Ukrainian Army that fought first Poland, then the Bolsheviks, losing eventually on both fronts but allowing for the declaration of an albeit short lived Ukrainian state in 1918.

In its only military action, the Galician SS Division suffered 70-80% killed in action. This battle at Brody goes down in history as a mere speed bump along the Red Army’s advance to Berlin.

I recommend Timothy Snyder’s book “Bloodlands” to learn about the plight of people trapped between Hitler and Stalin. History is not as simple as you imply, especially in the East. You should not resort to name calling. That’s the tactic of the left.

RM I have to say that I think that the clothes lookes cool. But I would be very careful just to read one book. There is a lot of blood in the ground in this part of the world, and very few inocent groups.

A lot of the books espesialy those of the Ukranian despora are holocost deniers.

And yes to say that they fought ONLY the Bolsheviks is an utter lie. They where and Waffen SS Division, pure and simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Ukrainian%29

Roman Skaskiw Did you read the wikipedia article you posted? It was their only major engagement.

Look, I’m not saying that they are heroes. I’m saying why it’s reasonable for them to get a sympathetic narrative in Ukraine. They are viewed by some as a heroic last stand against the Bolsheviks who slaughtered 25% of all Ukrainians in the two decades prior to the war.

The division itself was annihilated at Brody. What do you want from their ghosts? They fought to save Ukraine from the meat grinder that was the Soviet Union.

RM Roman: Yes I did serveral times. The division fought a lot more battles after that. I realy could not care less about this, but I can tell you that these marches are There for a reason. And a lot of the junk that the desproa have been spreading is holocost deniel pure and simple

Roman Skaskiw After Brody, only 3,000 of the Division’s 13,000 men were still alive.

I was under the impression that after it was rebuilt, it was no longer a predominantly Ukrainian division.

In any case, my point is that it’s dishonest to point and say “Look! Neo-Nazis!” This was a somber march to remember people’s great grandfathers and great uncles who died in an attempt to create a Ukrainian state, to prevent the Bolsheviks — who murdered most of Ukraine’s priests and intellectuals and up to 25% of the villagers — from returning.

They sacrificed everything for this noble cause. What the fuck do you want from them?

Your accusation is dishonest without the context of the genocide during which these men lived.

Interesting detail: One of the survivors of the Galician SS Division, Hrehori Hevryk, joined the Red Army and became an official “Hero of the Soviet Union.”

HD Roman Skaskiw, “History is not as simple as you imply, especially in the East. You should not resort to name calling. That’s the tactic of the left.” What do you mean by this and who is calling names?

Roman Skaskiw The headline of the article you posted. “Neo-Nazi March”.

RT is sympathetic to libertarians in the US, but completely useless on anything pertaining to Ukraine or other post-Soviet states.

HD You directed your criticism to me personally. Not so nice.

RM I will have to apologies for my ignorance. I can usually pinpoint most division in the war and there actions. But when it comes to the SS Division of the minor powers I have quite some gaps. Hence I rely on Wikipedia. Not the least because it is a leveled playingfield while books tend to favor the version of the author.

And that is perhaps a better advantage than the depth and details that I am sure are in the book you recommend. Although I will try to read it, because perspectives fascinate me.

But perspectives are just that, perspectives. The problem with this march is that it enhances one perspective. The one you just pointed out. Clearly coming from the people who fled the red army and settled in the west. And as far as I understand it is tilted.

There is a very good PDF describing this, I have downloaded a version.

http://194.14.172.112/~rene/PA-Rudling-on-Return-of-Ukrainian-Far-Right-2013-libre.pdf

So what do I want from these people. Well I would be happy if they would remember things for what they where not for what they would like them to be. Stop ripping up old wounds and expecting us to come and stop the blood that will be the inevitable outcome. We tried this one scenario before, in Yugoslavia. Let not do it again.

As for RT, it is the voice that tells what its master in the Kremlin would us in the west to hear, a perspective that the western media like to mute. Hence it an excellent source of news in combination with for example BBC. I would dread the day when RT is the only source, but the day when the BBC is the only news source is not very much better, we tried that in 1999.

As for calling the march neo-nazi. Well its interesting to see what there forum say about the news.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1038334/

And while I totally agree with you that people should be looked at in there historical context, this is not a privilege that should bestode only onto the unknown groups that cooperated with Hitler. It should in fairness be given to all sides that lived in that bloody time.

Roman Skaskiw You’re right, Henrik Donnerberg. Sorry. Not directed at you, but at RT.

Roman Skaskiw But you do, Henrik, seem to be giving your attention exclusively to the Russian point of view, which at this point — after the murderer, the tortures, the hostages, the complete oppression of media, is a pretty tenuous position for any libertarian to be taking.

Roman Skaskiw Rene — I don’t care what stormfront is saying. I care what Ukrainians are saying. This march (which was quite small) remembers people who gave their lives fighting the Red Army for a free Ukraine.

If you want to understand the Galician SS Division, you must understand it in the context of Holodomor, by some accounts the biggest genocide in the history of humanity.

If you want to understand the accusations of neo-nazism, you must understand it in the context of Russian propaganda, which accuses Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, even Belarus, Ukraine and Georgia of fascism and neo-nazism every time they try to distance themselves from Russian kleptocrasy.

Henrik Donnerberg But I have you Roman, who gives me an alternative position, thanks. Swedish media is very biased. It´s one voice together with EU; NATO; USA. We have foreign minister Carl Bildt who is also a one man show. EU/USA seems to be in symbiosis wth his views or perhaps the other way around.

Roman Skaskiw I think truth is more important than an “alternative position.”

HD What about the offspring from intermarriages between Russians and Ukrainians in Ukraine. What stance do they take. They must be all but a few.

HD Yes, truth…

Roman Skaskiw I know their stance quite well. I have many such friends. Not sure the relevance.

Roman Skaskiw There were Russians from Russia fighting on Maidan. It’s been truly a masterpiece of Kremlin propaganda to turn the revolution against a corrupt government into an anti-Russian movement. I have three personal friends in Lviv who’ve told me of phone calls from relatives in Moscow asking whether it’s true that people are beaten in streets here for speaking Russian. After Russian thugs assaulted a pro-Ukrainian protest in Donetsk with baseball bats yesterday, Russian media reported that Ukrainians assaulted Russians.

Russian political power relies on convincing their population that they’re surrounded by rabid, homosexual nazis, and that the only defense is offense.

So worry about “truth” before you seek a contrarian narrative simply b/c it opposes the EU.

6 Comments

  1. Vegas

    I usually deflate such indignant accusations with observation that the Allies (esp. Stalin and Mao) killed much more than Axis. Allied countries have no moral high ground.

    Reply
    1. Roman

      Yes. And I wish Ukrainians would choose their symbols more carefully. It is a mistake for them to choose the Galician SS as a symbol of their resistance to Moscow.

      Reply
  2. The MAD Jewess

    ‘Arguing about the commemoration of the Galician SS being called a “neo-nazi march” by RT

    They ARE Nazis and are proud of that. Just as Commies are proud to be Commies.

    Reply
  3. Ed K

    May 3, 2014 reply

    It was said, “In its only military action, the Galician SS Division
    suffered 70-80% killed in action. This battle at Brody goes down
    in history as a mere speed bump along the Red Army’s advance
    to Berlin.”

    Firstly, I knew one of the survivors.

    Second, It seems that current Ukrainians are again just going
    to be a speed bump to Putin.

    As I explained 10 years ago to Ukrainian who ask why Ukraine
    lacked leaders such as those of Cossacks?

    My response was that those who ability and could left Ukraine.

    Those that choose to stay in Ukraine were either killed by Soviets
    or shipped to Siberia. Yes many with high intelligence were left,
    but they were not the the personality and ability of Hetmen of
    Cossacks.

    Leaders can be developed. First you need the right seed, then
    you need the supportive environment. Communism and
    authoritarianism are not the venue to develop positive and
    collaborative leaders.

    A look at the military command structure demonstrates that there
    are many company grade officers, less field grade officers and fewer
    command officers.

    Historically what the Holodomor did in Ukraine is it killed a type
    individual who would aspire to higher leadership jobs. Or they
    left to another country. That is applying a normal curve, the top
    centile has been moved downward.

    Who was left? Apparently subservient majority or thugs.

    Whereas, Putin is a puppet master. He is manipulating many to
    achieve is goal, the resurrection of Russia.

    He has specific objectives and goals, whereas Ukraine just wants
    to be left alone. I would say the specific goals will trump the
    laissez faire.

    Reply

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