19 Comments

  1. Ed K

    It was said, “Secession is the best thing that can
    happen to any country.” Referring to an “An Article
    about Galacian Secession.”

    Humpf! So others whose ancestors survived the
    Holodomor are to be left to the tyranny of the
    bureaucrats of Kiev?

    Rather look at the ethnicity of Victor Yeshchenko.
    What was the language he spoke? What town in
    Ukraine was he from?

    Maybe instead of secession you might advocate
    adding the land just east of Ukraine, now a part
    of Russia inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians some
    of whom speak Ukrainian.

    Just because you can identify a small patch of Ukraine
    as your roots, does not mean others are not Ukrainian,
    does it? And those are to be left to tyrannical bureaucrats?

    Does such logic seem like Obama’s logic in Libya?
    Walk away from obligations. As Hillary said, “What
    difference does it make?”

    Where is my man Elmer?
    ——————– // ————————————–

    Reply
  2. elmer

    First, we heard about how silly (сила) Donbas was going to secede.

    Now a brutally stupid article about how Halychyna ought to secede.

    The implied assumption is that the brutal attack on everything Ukrainian in the eastern parts of Ukraine cannot be undone, which is a false assumption.

    As one comment to the article says:

    Підтримаю Сергія *Цей,навіть гіпотетичний проект-абсурд та утопія.Не маю бажання навіть його критикувати-настільки очевидна нісенітниця.*і стаття такаж – ніяка, оскільки жодні прогнози тут не доречні, а вказані фактори/показники – одні з 1000 які б впливали/визначали події і наслідки.

    Ukraine has massive problems.

    Talk of secession merely diverts time and energy away from solving those problems.

    Reply
  3. elmer

    And, of course, there were plenty in silly Donbas who, over the years, kept suggesting that Halychyna ought to secede, especially because silly Donbas was the “economic power” of Ukraine, and Halychyna could not ever exist on its own.

    Again – stupid talk which is raised for the purpose of diverting time and energy away from solving really gigantic, fundamental problems in Ukraine.

    It’s almost like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

    While the ship is sinking – “hmm, which chairs would look best in which spot?”

    Reply
  4. Ed K

    Elmer,

    Great reply.

    As I said, dividing up is wrong way to go.

    Audacity with talk of annexing the nest eastern
    Oblast that does have historical Ukrainian population
    and before soviets, spoke Ukrainian.

    It seems our man Roman is mired in Lviv. Where are
    the scribings that speak to the whole of Ukraine?

    While Roman posted a very good scribing on the Daily
    Anarchist, that article is too focused to show the way
    that Ukraine needs to go.

    See: https://dailyanarchist.com/2013/06/04/libertarianism-is-a-first-world-problem/

    What Ukraine cries for is “Leadership”.

    A leader who is honest.

    “Integrity is one of the core traits around which all
    else revolves. It goes to honesty and trustworthiness
    and dependability and so much more – all of the
    time (from training fields to battlefields to bars),
    not some of the time. There is no such thing as
    integrity being applied as convenient. One cannot
    sort of have integrity.” Andy Weddington

    Reply
  5. Andrii Drozda

    Sure, Halychyna should be a separate state and Bukovina, Zakarpattya, Volyn and every region of Ukraine too

    Reply
    1. Ed K

      And then Putin would send in his thugs to one Oblast at a
      time and have them join Russia? Does that sound familiar?

      No state that is Anarchy as Roman procribes, would
      allow for thugs to take control of states, dividing up Ukraine
      would allow Putin to rebuild Greater Russia.

      There are always going to be evil people. Just read and
      comprend history. One person at a time fighting evil just
      does not work. Evil has to be surpressed with power of
      many peoples.

      It is a never ending fight. There is never ending supply
      of evil people wanting you to be their slaves.

      Andriy, thank you for joining in.

      Reply
        1. Ed K

          So where are guns to come from?

          Who is to teach the best use of firearms?

          Twitter comments need to be followed by education
          and good reasons.

          Twitter comments by themselves lack value. Yes, an economic
          term value. Value in comments can be added in several ways.

          For example it might be construed as comformance to concept
          of who actually put value on property rights. And how is that
          conformance maintained? Followed by illustrations of that
          right to that specific property supported by current how to.

          The above comments should be food for an aspiring economic scribe.

          Reply
  6. elmer

    Andriy, I’m not sure what you mean.

    If you mean that Ukraine ought to be an independent state, I’m with you.

    But if you mean that Ukraine should be broken up into pieces, yet again, as has been done for centuries – well, that’s a downright stupid idea.

    Reply
    1. Andrii Drozda

      Elmer, secession movement defends the right of region to keep it’s wealth and to make it’s own decisions about spending and organization of life.
      What we have now in Ukraine is squeezing of all resourses out from regions to capital of state. And then center decides how much should be given back to regions. That’s a big fraud.

      Back to Ed’s remark about Russian threat – I think, people of Ukraine should demand not a secession itself (building boundaries) but a right to make their own decisions about their money and their lives. If Ukrainian people would have such an possibility everyone would see who solves his own problems better. And nobody ows noone.

      Reply
  7. elmer

    Well, Andriy, the simple solution to the problem is definitely not secession.

    The simple solution to the problem is:

    1) have elections for oblasts
    2) regional/municipal/city self-governance.

    That’s the way it’s done in other countries.

    Right now, Zookraine has a patronage system, deliberately built into the system, for the purpose of control.

    In case you don’t recognize the word “patronage,” it is handing out political jobs on the basis of political/family connections, loyalty and power connections.

    In Zookraine – теплі місця

    That includes controls of money, as you say.

    and you are not the only one to note and speak about this corrupt system.

    The mafiosi in Donbas claim that they provide most of the economic wealth in Zookraine, and therefore they should have most of the power and control.

    сила донбас – I call it silly (a play on the transliteration of the word “силм” or power) Donbas.

    Hogwash as to claims that Donbas deserves to get everything..

    You are right – the current system is big, big problem.

    But the solution is very simple – and it is not secession.

    Howver, other countries also have mechanism to even out tax revenues, so that one region doesn’t capture all of the tax revenues, and poorer areas receive government services just like wealthier areas.

    Secession is not an answer – it is a side problem which doesn’t solve anything.

    Reply
  8. elmer

    Andrew Drozda, you might consider this advice by Vitaly Portnikov, who is one of the best, if not the best, analyst in Ukraine:

    http://tvi.ua/new/2013/06/23/vitaliy_portnykov_ukrayinskym_opozycioneram_varto_zakinchuvaty_z_populizmom

    A big failure in Zookraine is the failure of the people to stand up and demand democracy.

    But Vitaly Portnikov also faults – and praises – the opposition for some of their tactics.

    The battle right now is between those who want democracy and those who don’t.

    Zookraine has not had true, real democracy, or a court system, for over 20 years.

    Instead, it is the land of Akhmetovia.

    Portnikov makes eminent sense – far more sense than secession.

    Reply
    1. Andrii Drozda

      Elmer, Portnikov is a very gifted publicist but I have very different vision of democracy model in Ukraine

      Reply
  9. elmer

    What vision is that, Andrew?

    Portnikov is not a publicist, and I’m sure that you chose that word unintentionally.

    He is an analyst.

    I am very curious as to what your vision of democracy is.

    I was once told by a Ukrainian that in Ukraine there is more democracy than anywhere else because “there are 120 political parties registered in Ukraine, and more than 100 political parties in Parliament.” Utterly laughable.

    Right now, there is no democracy in Zookraine under the criminal regime of yanusvoloch and his Bolshevik Regionnaire banda.

    I look forward to your comments.

    Reply
    1. Andrii Drozda

      Elmer, my vision of democracy can be briefly described as ‘constant contortion of people’s will which leads to fraud, theft and manipulations of authorities”. Democracy is impossible on large territory, in big countries like Ukraine.

      Reply
  10. elmer

    While you are pondering your vision of democracy in contrast to Vitaly Portnikov’s vision, Андрію, you might take a look at this story from Ohio.

    It is from Lakewood, Ohio, a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio, and it involves a Byzantine Catholic church taking down its onion dome because it no longer has enough parishioners to support the church. The church was built in about 1925, and a contractor took down the onion dome without first getting a permit – from the city.

    http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2013/06/a_churchs_onion_dome_is_remove.html#/0

    In contrast, I look at Zookraine, especially Kyiv, the Pechersk Lavra, the riots around Hostynna Ploshcha, the rampant rape of wooded areas, and parks, and neighborhoods by developers connected with the government, over the protests of people.

    Something to think about.

    Reply
  11. Ed K

    Andriy and Elmer,

    You guys mentioned churchs in USA. Understand that many
    Ukrainian churches in USA were inner city churches and the
    problem of the Cleveland Church is common.

    It is exacerbated when it most able run off. Using the education
    they received as a springboard. After my military service I never
    went back.

    Here is one famous Ukrainian church where its most
    able progeny have gone hither:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._George%27s_Church_(New_York_City)

    And I live about 800 kilometers from where I was baptized.
    Albeit, like St. George’s it has moved from it very old center
    city location to edge of city location:

    http://cliftonorthodoxcathedral.org/home.html

    Holy Ascension has a problem of keeping up a congregation.
    Consider that only two of my cousins are involved. The
    cousins that I keep track of cover thousands of USA miles.

    A quick look sees some in California, Texas, Colorado,
    Wyoming, Florida, New Jersey, New York,
    Connecticut, Vermont, Georgia, and me in South Carolina.

    And that is only those I keep track of.

    Most have assimilated and no longer identify their heritage as
    Ukrainian. Most have married outside the Ukrainian church.

    Actually there is one onion dome near here, a Russian Orthodox
    church.

    ————————– // ———————————–

    Reply
  12. elmer

    Ed K, you missed the point.

    The point was the concern of citizens and the city of Lakewood about following rules, in an orderly and civilized manner.

    That is in stark contrast to what has been occurring in the sovok mafia state of Zookraine.

    Hostynnyj Dvir (Hospitalty Square) is a good example, where “developers” in Kyiv are trying to knock down a historic site in lawless fashion, and there have been riots and fires.

    Andriivsky Uzviz (St. Andrew’s descent) was another case in point.

    Pechersk Lavra is another case in point.

    There are many more such cases in point, of developers simply raping and pillaging, in Zookraine.

    Reply
  13. ed k

    Elmer,

    Very good reply.

    However, to what extent should antiquities be preserved?

    My reply indicated when dealing with churches, when the
    congregation supporting that building can no longer do so,
    who is decide about building?

    My replies are limited when I am on my laptop which
    uses windows 8.

    Windows 8 is a PITA. Do not get it unless you have
    no choice, like me when I had to get new laptop and
    they all came with it.

    Reply

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